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  • Topic: EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

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    • February 23, 2012 9:04 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Didn't know where else to put this so I put it here. I am venting. My esteem for the show dog world just dropped somewhere around the dog sh*t on the ground.

       

      I mentioned a few weeks ago that I have been grooming a Bouvie pup and the owner was meeting with a handler and a groomer who is an handstripping expert (referred by the handler ~ handler was referred by the Pres. of the AKC Bouvie club.) They were all impressed with this dog just looking at pictures.

       

      So, owner meets with handler, I don't remember his name but first name is Jim. He has taken other dogs to Westminster, I believe she said mostly Boxers, but hadn't handled a Bouvie in about 10 years. He said the dog is magnificent. A stunning example of his breed. He has a slight wiggle in the back end when he walks but he said he'd grow out of it, it wasn't structural. BUT, he has a TAIL. He tried to convince her to dock this dog's gorgeous tail! She, of course, refused. She, like me, is against mutilation. She is from Europe. They don't do that anymore and she flew over and got this dog from, I think, Finland.

       

      He told her she would have a tough time showing him because of the tail. While the judges would never say it because they would know it's "politically incorrect", they'll just find other faults in him to pin it on. So, this champion handler then tries to look in Olivers mouthg and he fusses. Doesn't get nasty, doesn't growl, just pulls away fussy. He HITS HIM IN THE FACE and tells him that has to stop!!! SO much for positive reinforcement in the handling world.

       

      On to the groomer who was supposed to handstrip him. Turns out he was clueless and ruined the dogs crest. I had put the owner in contact with Lesley Nagle and it was Lesley who told her the groomer ruined the crest. Even "I" know the Bouvie is supposed to have a crest. Someone please tell me why this groomer who grooms for Westminster handlers didn't know that a Bouvie is supposed to have a crest???/!!!!!! So, next month, Lesley is handstipping Oliver for her and teaching her how to do it.

       

      She contacted another handler that she was referred to. Jump ahead....hes magnificent.... can you dock the tail?  GRRRRRRR

       

      Someone tell me WTF is so wrong with this country that we are h*ll bent on mutilation? We amputate our cats' feet because we're too lazy to train the cat to not scratch the furniture, we slice up ears and cut off tails because we "like" the way it looks. Someone please tell me what is wrong with a dog the way it's born?

       

      If docking and cropping is such a requirement, then why is dying a dog, using whatever extensions, additions or anything else for that matter to make a dog look better "illegal" in showing? If you can perform surgery to make a dog look better, why is dying the hair and anything else wrong? What a fkt up set of rules.

       

      Why, if all of Europe has stopped declawing, cropping and docking, do we in this country still allow it, no, demand it? Are we really that selfish, self centered and egotistical that we feel it's necessary to do surgery on our animals just because we like it?

       

      This is Oliver a few months ago.

       

       

       

      ____________________________________

      "And can it be that in a world so full and busy, the loss of one small creature makes a void in any heart, so wide and deep that nothing but the width and depth of vast eternity can fill it up?"...
      Charles Dickens

    • February 23, 2012 9:36 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I just don't understand WHY WHY WHY folks can't appreciate an animal for their natural beauty. It's a painful procedure to chop off a tail and slice off ears. I don't attend dog shows that require the mutilation of animals. The ONLY thing I will do to an animal is strictly for their comfort, i.e. a haircut. Nothing is done to them simply because the owner likes it, i.e. shaving the hair off a cat because it looks neat. I have a horse as well and I am constantly battling other horse owners that ask me why I don't ride my horse. I respond, "My horse was not born with a saddle on his back and therefore I choose not to break him down like so many injured horses for sale." I am a naturalist and appreciate animals for their natural beauty. My animals are all rescues that needed a loving home. I PRAY that this nonsense of mutilating animals goes bye bye in this country as well.

    • February 23, 2012 10:21 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      catsmom said:

      Why, if all of Europe has stopped declawing, cropping and docking, do we in this country still allow it, no, demand it? Are we really that selfish, self centered and egotistical that we feel it's necessary to do surgery on our animals just because we like it?

       

       

      Sadly, yes....................

       

       

      Barb

      ____________________________________

      If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.

    • February 23, 2012 10:34 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Apart from my obvious opinion on surgeries, I guess what I am not understanding most is the show circuit rationale of having to have docked tails and cropped ears. (Although the handlers said they thought the ears wouldn't be an issue...huh?????!!!!)

       

      Isn't the basic premise of the dog shows to judge a dog and ultimately say, this is a superior example of this breed. Reproduce from him so that you further a superior line and keep the breed true to itself. I can understand if a dog is supposed to be born withOUT a tail and HAS one. That is an understandable disqualification. A tail on a dog that shouldn't have one is a trait you don't want to pass on! But to SLICE off the tail and say it MUST be that or the dog is not worthy of being judged???? You cannot pass on a cropped tail through genetics! So why disqualify a dog for HAVING what he was BORN with?!!!

      ____________________________________

      "And can it be that in a world so full and busy, the loss of one small creature makes a void in any heart, so wide and deep that nothing but the width and depth of vast eternity can fill it up?"...
      Charles Dickens

    • February 23, 2012 3:16 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I agree 100 %. I knew a rottie with a tail. It was so awesome I loved it! I cannot stand the cutting and chopping off body parts. My aussie neice has her tail. I know some aussies are already born without a tail but when they do they are chopped. I might get an aussie in the furture and I want one with a tail. my cats scratch on my cedar bed. I get splinters every where. I love their nails and thier nails are worth more money than my bed. It was a very expensive bed but if my cats like it then so be it. I live in the house my animals own the house. We just pay the bills so they can have a nice place to live. While on this subject about stupid "show people" I have a smooth coat border collie (the one in the picture) people say there is no such thing. In the shows you never see a smooth coat. Heck they don't even mention it which ticks me off beyond beleif. That bouvie tail is gorgeous. Let the animals have what god gave them for goodness sakes!

      ____________________________________

      Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Matthew 7.7 


    • February 23, 2012 3:31 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      While there were reasons for it in the past, mostly it's the looks.


      But if you're all about only "natural" then technically you shouldn't have 90% of the breeds, as they are artifically produced and you shouldn't even keep a dog or cat, especially not inside, and not groomed!


      There are no wild bichons chasing down kibble in the jungles of Borneo. All of our pet dogs are artifical. So saying you won't ride a horse because it's unnatural, while keeping a pet dog inside and training it or grooming it is a bit odd. Horses were domesticated TO be ridden and used. Dogs were domesticated to be pets and working animals.


      I believe that the tail/ear docking will be made illegal within the next decade, if not sooner. I don't mind tails, as long as they are done when the pups are born, not afterwards, certainly not as an adult. Having watched a lot of tail dockings(done by vets), most of the pups never acted like they felt a thing, so I can't say it's "painful" to be done.  Ears I don't like, as I feel it's traumatic and painful, even when the dog gets pain meds after surgery, I just don't think it's needed, considering how much the dog goes through for basically fashion.


      Until it's made illegal, ear cropping and tail docking will continue. It will lessen, just as cat declawing has lessened, as owners feel pressure by others who feel it's 'wrong' or 'ugly'. But there will still be those who get the fashion surgery done, because that's how the breed "has always looked".

    • February 23, 2012 3:59 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Horses are not domesticated! They are still as wild as the day we jumped on their backs and shoved steel in their mouths. I can turn a horse loose with a band of wild horses and they will survive just fine for the most part. I have a horse only because it was in need of a home and I didn't want it ending up in the glue factory. My horse is left as natural as possible. No bit in his mouth EVER and free to live as natural as possible at the cost of $800.00 a month.

      You are right....there are no wild Bichons running around because dogs have been domesticated over thousands of years; they cannot survive in the wild because as you said...we have interfered by breeding designer dogs. Bichons etc. would end up dead if let loose. You couldn't bring a wolf home but you can bring a dog into your home. It’s time for change.

    • February 23, 2012 4:17 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Yes, we have created "artificial" dogs. But it's been done by selective breeding. Docking a tail will not suddenly produce tailess puppies!!!!

       

      That's why I don't get the concept of disqualifying a dog for having a natural tail when it means NOTHING towards his ultimate breeding. Here you have a dog that handlers have said is "stunning" and even the Bouvie person was impressed just from his pictures. Yet this stunning example of his breed will be disqualified for something that has ZERO effect on his offsrping?

       

      This dog seriously takes your breathe away. He's the kind of dog where you could know nothing about conformation but you look at him and just know he's special. It's all those things about balance and symmetry that they try and teach us in the grooming seminars!!! When they all fall perfectly in place, you know the dog looks amazing even if you don't quite know why! And it ain't my grooming, I guess at his pattern with "Notes" at my side!!!  LOL I've had cars pull over and ask me what he is.

       

      As for change, the owner is going to learn to handle him on her own. She says she knows he may never make it anywhere because of his terrible tail but she wants people to start seeing a magnificent dog WITH a tail. Maybe there's a judge out there who will feel the same.

      ____________________________________

      "And can it be that in a world so full and busy, the loss of one small creature makes a void in any heart, so wide and deep that nothing but the width and depth of vast eternity can fill it up?"...
      Charles Dickens

    • February 23, 2012 7:31 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      She should absolutely either show him herself or find a transplanted European show handler to do so. The more tailed dogs judges see, the faster they will be used to seeing good dogs with tails.


      And your horse IS domesticated.  Just because it will do okay as a feral doesn't negate the thousands of years of breeding to get a domesticated animal. Dogs run feral too, that doesn't negate the domestic status either. It's your horse and you can let it sit in a pasture all year round, but it doesn't negate the fact that horses were domesticated for work and use, just like dogs. If you walk your dog on a leash, ask it to behave, keep it in a house, you're doing no more and no less than someone riding or working their horse.

    • February 23, 2012 7:45 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I have to disagree on the dogs not being able to survive. Most dogs would figure out really quick how to survive. Many dogs are born feral and live their whole lives feral. Those same dogs would likely make great house pets if they were taken in at weaning. I couldn't begin to count the number of dogs our rescue has taken in that had to be trapped. They were living 'wild' after being lost or dumped. Some for months before we could catch them. They survived just fine and became house pets again once they were brought back inside.


      Barb

      ____________________________________

      If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.

    • February 23, 2012 7:55 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Domestication differs from taming in that tamed animals are born in the wild while domesticated animals are bred in captivity. Horses are STILL born in the wild and survive without interference from humans. We take them from the wild, breed them and call them domesticated.  If only my horse could lie on my sofa and get a belly rub LOL.  In my opinion it’s like having a tiger in my living room and claiming it is domesticated simply because it was born in captivity.

      Now that we have domesticated dogs over thousands and thousands of years and brought them into our homes, it is necessary to bathe and groom them and that’s why I groom.


      P.S. Who said my horse sits in a pasture? I take him for walks every other day and he has more turn-out to run and play than most horses I know that rot in a stall. I dedicated my life to rescue animals. Do you have horses? Does this look like a horse that rots in a pasture to you?

    • February 23, 2012 8:02 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Here in New Brunswick, Canada tail docking and ear cropping was made illegal for vets to do. Breeders/owners can do it BUT legally it is practicing vet medicine so it is illegal.

    • February 23, 2012 8:12 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I agree Barb that a dog that was lost or dumped or possibly born feral can survive and adapt to man but its not likely for a Bichon (as stated earlier) that has gotten loose from your home to survive long

      .

    • February 23, 2012 8:56 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Yes those feral "pets" affect wild game populations and kill livestock to survive. I think wild predators have a right to survive & thrive but if they can't survive on wild prey do to lack of prey. or are not skilled enough to do so, as a small livestock owner I will protect my animals as necessary.
      We do not take kindly to loose pets or dumped dogs attacking my goats. I understand that is their instinct to survive but not at my livestocks expense.
      I don't suppose this has anything to do with docking tails. If animals should remain as nature intended then people shouldn't be living in cities eating genetically modified food and injecting ourselves & our animals with vaccines either.
      ____________________________________

      Because you can never have too much of a goat thing.

    • February 23, 2012 9:34 PM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      No, we do not "take horses from the wild" any more than we "take wolves from the wild = dogs".


      Horses are a domestic species. The ONLY 'wild' species is the Przewalski's horse, which is LESS genetically a domestic horse than a wolf is a domestic dog. They are not a wild species that we merely tame, they have been bred for thousands of years to be a domestic species. Simply stating you could dump one into the wild and if it survives, it means it's not domesticated is wrong. See the dog example, or most other species. Horses are every bit as domesticated as cows are. Dumping a dairy cow into the wild no more makes it a bison than dumping a domestic horse into the wild somehow makes it a 'wild species'. Most horse breeds will NOT thrive, and many will not survive out in the "wilds", as their bodies need more nutrition than brushy grass and browse will provide, espcially in winter months.


      Many horses enjoy going out riding with their owners.  Do you put your horse on a halter and lead when you take her for walks? Same as a dog, it's caring for a domestic species. Riding a horse is just a unnatural as haltering a horse, teaching a dog to fetch or a cat to use a litter box.


      I said "sits in a pasture" as opposed to being ridden or used, not that you allow it to "rot" in a pasture. I have indeed owned horses, trained horses and worked with horses, both highly bred, rescues, and mustangs... all domestic horses. I've had my hands on hundreds of horses. Horses do not poop rainbows. Neither do dogs or cows or chickens. If you want to be hypocritical in stating that haltering and training your horse is natural, but riding it is not.... or that training a dog is natural but training a horse is not, that's your choice. Horses were domesticated to be ridden and used, just as all domestic species were domesticated for a purpose.


      And I agree, ferals are a serious problem and need to be eliminated wherever possible. Most feral species are extremely harmful to native species of animals and plants. Feral dogs are extremely dangerous, as are feral pigs and feral cats. Feral horses can even be dangerous and destructive. Our "wild" horses(mustangs) are not "wild" at all, but merely generations of feral horses released over the years after they were brought to this continent by the Spanairds.  They are not native, not wild and technically don't even belong out West, although they've become such a part of history that most prefer a population always remain.

    • February 24, 2012 5:51 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      If horses had never been domesticated and used for transportation I believe the world would look much different now compared to today. I doubt that the New World would have ever have been discovered yet. JMHO

    • February 24, 2012 7:50 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      That is true that the wild horses in this country are domesticated horses that either escaped or were abandonded by the Spanish in the early years of exploring our country. They have adapted to the wild but I agree they are feral domestic horses.
      Daisy Cutter I am glad that you enjoy and care for your horse whether you ride it or not. 

      I don't have a problem with docking tails. I've done it to many a new born poodle puppy myself and helped at the vet clinic. I do agree though that a full tail isn't a genetic factor in a breed that generally docks tails and personally would like to see more of them shown.  I hope the lady DOES show this awesome Bouveir and finishes it. 

       

      ____________________________________

      Because you can never have too much of a goat thing.

    • February 24, 2012 8:21 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I believe I may know the Handler in question and don't discount what you're saying for a second. Just because someone from the parent club recommended him doesn't mean he isn't a world class A**hat. I've seen him do more despicable crap to dogs then anyone in dogdom. I've seen many Professiona Handlers act in ways I considered detrimental to their charges. That being said, It's important to remember there are a few "Guilds" and some handlers are "Recognized" by the AKC but they are much as we are, unregulated. FIND ANOTHER ONE. 

       

      I can't go downtown this weekend and run with all the big boys in the NBA Allstar game that is in town, but I CAN enter my dog in an AKC dog show and compete with the so called Professionals..., and this is what is great about it.....I can BEAT THE PANTS OFF 'EM! Owner Handlers are where you will often see the "Changes" in the breeds and that is where it starts. This is a Beautiful Bouvie Baby. There are alot of classes for conformation in the NJ area and she needs to get in one, learn how to do it herself, she'll get help from other owner handlers of the breed and other breeds as well. She'll get moral support and so much more. There are many Great Dane & Doberman people that stopped cropping ears, have shown and finished their own dogs. No one is respected more or more lauded then the Owner Handler in the AKC. There are judges that won't put her up, but there are just as many that will. 

       

      When I first began showing Hani, there was no one showing any other color of Shar Pei that wasn't Fawn or Red Fawn. Black just wasn't done. I heard every excuse under the sun for not putting him up. But after a few shows, Exhibitors got used to seeing him, Judges got used to seeing him, he got MUCH better at showing, and guess what? He began to win and finished with 5 point majors from Specialty shows. Because the Breeders appreciated him. There is a place for this dog and she needs to find it.

      ____________________________________

      Once you can accept the universe as being something expanding into an infinite nothing which is something, wearing stripes with plaid is easy. Albert Einstein

    • February 24, 2012 8:32 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Thanks for the encouragement (for the owner), ruby. Would you mind if I passed your post on to her? She is looking into handling classes.

      ____________________________________

      "And can it be that in a world so full and busy, the loss of one small creature makes a void in any heart, so wide and deep that nothing but the width and depth of vast eternity can fill it up?"...
      Charles Dickens

    • February 24, 2012 8:41 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Not at all. Please let her know that the area you are in leaves you a total hot bed for showing, learning and competing in AKC. Since shows have to be 200 miles apart  she could virtually have her pick of clubs, learning opportunities, shows and judges at her decision. Tell her to keep her spirits up and confidence. Trail Blazers MUST have confidence! Smile She can do this and she WILL find support out there. 

      ____________________________________

      Once you can accept the universe as being something expanding into an infinite nothing which is something, wearing stripes with plaid is easy. Albert Einstein

    • February 24, 2012 8:53 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Thanks! She's determined, all right! We're going to a large show here March 23-25 at the Raritan Center, NJ. The herding group is on Friday so she's going to meet and pick brains as much as possible. I'm going to spectate! :-)

      ____________________________________

      "And can it be that in a world so full and busy, the loss of one small creature makes a void in any heart, so wide and deep that nothing but the width and depth of vast eternity can fill it up?"...
      Charles Dickens

    • February 24, 2012 9:06 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      Let her know that she WILL have naysayers within her own breed and the Herding Grp in particular. But she can turn them around when they see him move! Sometimes the hardest ones to change are within your own rank and file. 

      ____________________________________

      Once you can accept the universe as being something expanding into an infinite nothing which is something, wearing stripes with plaid is easy. Albert Einstein

    • February 25, 2012 6:21 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I have written a novel (murder mystery) in which one of my characters breeds and shows mini schnauzers. She does the tails on her puppies at 3 days but doesn't do the ears, which earns her 20 kinds of criticism and cr&p from the judges and her handlers. It takes her a while to finish her natural eared dogs and get any kind of recognition, but at least she does eventually. I manage to avoid any pontificating or AR spouting in my story. Maybe in the sequel she will start leaving tails too. :)

    • February 25, 2012 6:53 AM CST
    • EWWWWWW ~ he has a TAILLLLLLLLL

      I have been in the dog show world for over 20 yrs. I will be the first to agree there are people in the sport who have no business being there. But I do get a little defensive when people condemn the entire sport and all breeders, owners and professional handlers. It is no different for us groomers. There are good ones and there are bad ones. Nobody gets more upset then we the good groomers do when we hear of abuse of an animal by a groomer. And it is the same in the dog show world. Nobody gets more upset then the good people in the sport when we hear of abuse by a fellow fancier. And as Rubymom said there are a lot of natural ear undocked tail dogs being put up at shows. I do think it is time to rethink the tail docking and ear cropping. Docking a tail of a newborn and docking the tail of an older dog are two totally different things. There is a lot more pain and trauma doing it past those first couple days of life. One reason I have the breed I do is because our standard is very clear about it being shown natural. We don't even remove dew claws. Sadly owners do have to be careful when choosing a handler. Often when you are told so and so is a great handler and can finish your dog quickly it is more due to the "tricks of the trade" and political power of that person, not the way they care for the dog. When I started out I spent a lot of time watching handlers. Not just in the ring but at their set ups. I took note of handlers who appeared to be very ethical in their treatment of the dogs. Sadly I noted there were some handlers who exercised the dogs  early evening then went out with their buddies to party the night away. But most handlers are hard working. They are at the showsite by 6a.m. and after the show the dogs are exercised, fed and cared for throughout the evening. The good handlers may go out to eat with friends but within an hour or so they are back "on the job" caring for the dogs. The same holds true with the owner/breeder/handlers. Yes there are good and bad people in the sport and there are good and bad groomers and we know how that makes us feel when people think we are all evil so please don't do the same to the good dog show people.

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